Sandra Palmer - Part 1 (The Early Years)

Our inspiring conversation with Sandra Palmer, a 2024 inductee into the World Golf Hall of Fame,  traces her journey from her humble beginnings in Fort Worth and Maine to her crowning as an iconic figure in the world of golf. A testament to her grit and determination, Sandra shared how she discovered her passion for golf at age 13 and how the sport served as a sanctuary during her turbulent childhood. Not your ordinary caddy, her knack for never losing a ball made her a favorite among gamblers, paving her way towards her first set of golf clubs and an unforgettable path in the sport.

At age 14, she moved with her mother to Texas, living with her grandmother and eventually encountering Ed and Vida Warren who fostered her love for the game. Sandra honed her game at Glen Garden G&CC where Hogan and Nelson grew up. Listen in as she recalls her college days at North Texas State where being a cheerleader and Homecoming Queen seemed to take precedence over golf.  We delve into her early training days under the influential Harvey Penick at Austin Country Club, discussing his teaching methods that not only worked on improving her grip but also instilled the importance of tempo.

Just when you think you've heard it all, Sandra recounts her competitive journey of earning her LPGA card, facing formidable players like Kathy Whitworth, Mickey Wright, Betsy Rawls, and Carol Mann. This conversation with Sandra is a celebration of her remarkable achievements and immense contribution to the sport of golf. Tune in and get inspired by the incredible journey of Sandra Palmer as she takes us back to those early years, “FORE the Good of the Game.”

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The story of a quest to play the Top 100 Golf courses in the UK & Ireland in just 10 years

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Chapters

• 0:15 Sandra Palmer's Golf Journey
• 9:11 Winter Sports, Golf, and Influences
• 23:31 [Ad] The Top 100 in 10 Golf Podcast
• 24:14 (Cont.) Winter Sports, Golf, and Influences
• 24:50 Texas Golf and Harvey Penick
• 34:49 LPGA Qualifications and Competitive Challenges

Transcript

Music playing  00:00

Mike Gonzalez  00:16

Welcome to another edition of FORE the Good of the Game and Bruce Devlin. First of all, we've got another Texan on the program. And she might have gotten a pretty important phone call a few weeks back.

Devlin, Bruce  00:28

Oh, she did get an important phone call and very deserving I might say to and that was from the World Golf Hall of Fame and she will be inducted next June. And that's why if you don't know already know who it is, I'm going to add some more Texas Golf Hall of Fame LPGA Golf Hall of Fame, Collegiate Golf Hall of Fame. Two majors, 28 victories. And the great Sandra Palmer is with us this morning. Thanks for joining us.

Palmer, Sandra  01:02

I need you as my agent

Devlin, Bruce  01:07

it's a pleasure to have you with us. We've got a you've got a great story. And we look forward to him for you telling it and and we're gonna keep these forever. You realize that don't you?

Palmer, Sandra  01:20

Thank you. Beyond surpass me, I hope Thank you. So that important phone call that you had was two days before my birthday. So that was on March the eighth so you don't get a phone call if you're not if you're not inducted so when I saw that name come up. You thought I was like I gotta get this call. So it was a I still can't believe it. Let's put it that way um, in very deserving people have just been great. And that's the best part.

Mike Gonzalez  01:59

Yeah, well Sandra, share with our listeners who called you and what did they have to say?

Palmer, Sandra  02:06

So actually, I saw the the email or text come up with Greg McLaughlin from the World Golf Hall of Fame and I was I have a little job actually. I'm working in the at Shadow Hills Golf Club in Indio. And I'm have had a great time this year. And I work in the shop a couple of days. And so when I saw this name, come up at my my pro Terry Ferraro was there he used to play on the tour he played with Moe Norman and George Knudson. So I said, Terry, do you mind if I get this call? So I ran out. And when he when Greg told me I just started crying. It was just, if I think about it, now I might do so too. So it was a very emotional thing. So

Mike Gonzalez  02:57

yeah, what a neat, called again, and we'll talk a little bit about that later. As Bruce mentioned, you'll be inducted in June. This will be in Pinehurst at the New World Golf Hall of Fame. With the USGA, so that should be really special around the U.S. Open

Palmer, Sandra  03:11

share that building is going to be something of the USGA has something to do with it. You know, it's first class, so

Mike Gonzalez  03:19

yep, no question. So we're here obviously, to tell your story. And the way to do that is to start the very beginning. So we understand you were born in Fort Worth, ended back up in Texas at some point, but just tell us a little bit about what life was like growing up as a young lady back in those days. Well,

Palmer, Sandra  03:37

actually. My parents moved to the state of Maine. My father was from New England. He was a traveling salesman. in my younger days, my mainly my grandmother raised me, my mother had me when she was like 17, so it was pretty young. So anyway, they moved to to Maine. And I went to a country school, sixth through the eighth get eighth grade at Lucerne in Maine. There's a huge lake. And there was a little nine hole Golf Course. So when I was 13 years old, somehow I got off that school bus and found my way into golf. I always played sports, I was a little tomboy. And I ended up the pro there. His name was John Brown. And I guess he led me to back in that's a long way back now when you're 80. So But anyway, I still remember that Golf Course it was very hilly nine holes. And I worked a little bit in the shop. I'm not sure exactly what I did, but he introduced me to golf. And I became a caddy. And one of the guys that I caddied for his name was Max Weinstein. And he was a gambler. And he liked me because I didn't lose a ball. And I would, I was, I was right there. And I could still remember, he, he parted with his finger down the shaft like I'm demonstrating here, you can't see it. But anyway, that like Nancy Lopez dead. And so you know, and I made money, and that was really good. And then I then I ended up by getting a set of clubs. My first clubs were Jackie Burke, Jr. and I carried those clubs home crying, because I was afraid my mother wasn't going to let me buy them. And I paid for myself. So that was my exposure to golf. And then when I started playing, played in a little tournament in Bangor, and I sent my clipping home to my grandmother in Fort Worth, Texas. And she was so proud of me this now that you don't know this story, man. But she was so proud of me because I had the highest score was 98 that was my first my first tournament. That was, so then, you know, after that, my parents, they didn't get along, too. Well, let's put it that way. And my mother and myself moved back to Texas, and my grandmother mainly took care of me. And somewhere in there, through golf, I was able to meet this wonderful family call. Their name was Vida and Ed Warren. And they took me in. And my grandmother gave me permission to go live with him. He couldn't do that today. Yeah. And my life changed. So that's the happy part of my life. The other part, except for golf wasn't the happiest, but you come from a broken home. It's pretty tough. So, but my my whole life changed. And I feel like I've been lucky ever since. So.

Devlin, Bruce  07:23

Yeah.

Mike Gonzalez  07:24

Well, picking up on a couple of the things you said. You mentioned as a caddy and never lost a ball.

Palmer, Sandra  07:31

Well, not that I remember. You don't remember the bad things, Mike.

Mike Gonzalez  07:35

So if you ever get a chance to see Bernhard longer again, you want to tell him about that because on the podcast, we knew he was known as the Adlerauge , which in German is Eagle Eye. he prided himself as a caddy on having a system to mark balls, and he never lost the ball either.

Palmer, Sandra  07:56

Very well, he probably still hasn't lost any either. So I'm always impressed with him. So I saw him in the Champions when they were here. And I said he was over working on his game on a Monday, of course, and I said, Don't you get tired of winning? He looked up. Tired of losing.

Devlin, Bruce  08:23

is the one thing about golfer you lose more times than you win? For sure.

Mike Gonzalez  08:29

Yeah, Bruce, the other thing I picked up on was just, you know, what Sandra talked about in terms of playing other sports. And we've heard that from virtually all of our guests.

Palmer, Sandra  08:40

I play basketball. I love basketball. I can play basketball in high school. I hear your dog bros. That's good. Maybe I'll let money and he's scratching on the door. They need to be with us, you know? Yeah, you know, sports. You know, there's so many players today were that I played with with obviously, Patty Sheehan and Pat Bradley that were skiers and gosh, you look at their swings and what good balance they had. But winter sports weren't so good for me. I being brought up in Texas. And when I went to live in in Maine for those three years, I Daiya. It was so old and those snow drifts were so high. And I remember up on top of the hill, guess where the Golf Course was? There was a pond and it it would freeze over and I tried my hand at skating putting but my feet would freeze before I could ever get them off. And it was yeah, they were tough. I guess I didn't have the right equipment, you know, to if I didn't have the right clothes and so forth. So

Mike Gonzalez  09:46

yeah. The other thing that we ask our guests occasionally, and that's really you know what the attraction to golf was and again, oftentimes what we've heard is, as a as a, as an individual sport as a solitary sport, a lot of people found refuge in having golf to themselves walking, practicing by themselves. Given what you went through as a child, do you can you relate to that at all?

Palmer, Sandra  10:12

You know that it's interesting that you said that because I was always a loner, and was left alone a lot. When and I know that golf was my escape. And amazingly, even today, I don't I like to go out and play by myself. I have a golf cart now, which I never thought I would. But anyway, I have a golf cart. And rather than make games or something, I don't know, I just go out and practice. You know, I like to be off in the corner when I'm practicing. And, yeah, I don't know, it's fun. You just get to see more or feel more or your thoughts, you know, just nature and just exploring that trying to get a little better. Yeah, no one has to see the back shots I hit now. So

Devlin, Bruce  11:03

join the club,

Palmer, Sandra  11:05

join the club or play with you. And that's my goal was going to be my new. My new goal Bruce is for us to go out and play we might invite I'd love to do.

Mike Gonzalez  11:16

So Sandra as you found your way back to Texas and found yourself in the lives of Ed and Vida. Tell us a little bit about then how your game sort of developed, who are the people that were influencing the way you were learning the game and how your skills developed?

Palmer, Sandra  11:33

Well, when I obviously met Vida and Ed Warren through golf at Glen Garden, they lived on the third hole at Glen Garden Country Club. And my grandmother, like I said, encouraged me when after, you know, I didn't just move in and right away, but I got to know them and, and beta went to a few little tournaments, little tournaments with me. And I don't know, I just always just loved it. I mean, I just feel like it was meant to be. So anyway, sorry.

Devlin, Bruce  12:16

Not so you know, the Glen Garden is no longer 

Palmer, Sandra  12:20

a brewery now. And you know, back in the day, well, you know, I don't know if you know, a lot of the history of, of Glen Garden, but the Ben Hogan and and Byron Nelson. Were there at one time being used to caddy there supposedly he I, there was a pro there and I'm smiley, rollin, and that's why and he was an older gentleman. And so I got to hear a lot of the stories about the venues to walk to the Golf Course to caddy because he was kind of the breadwinner, I guess back then. And then Byron, he probably started out Caddying, but because he His personality was completely different supposedly than than Ben Hogan. So he got to be in the shop. So I'd heard lots of stories about them. And then also to back in that day, they had this Invitational and Charles Coody came, a lot of the really good amateurs came and played there. So I got to see a lot of them. But like I said, I lived across the third aisle from that and they had really small green. So at one time, I was really good with my short game, if you could hit that green you just about how to had a birdie putt, but in a little bit later, that was owned by a family. So there was a plaque out on the entry. I don't know if you'd ever seen this, Bruce. But there was a plaque that said the home of Ben Hogan, Byron Nelson, in Sandra Palmer little Sandra Palmer. So I'm proud of that. So I never they weren't there, obviously when I was growing up, but I wish they right.

Devlin, Bruce  14:08

So Sandra has a little postscript to what you just said. You remember a lady by the name of Marty Leonard, of course. Who, who obviously was at the Shady Oaks Country Club for a long time when Hogan was there was she and I went to a council meeting trying to save Glen Garden from being turned into into a brewery.

Palmer, Sandra  14:34

She could have probably she probably had enough money she could have bought it.

Devlin, Bruce  14:38

And we and we failed. We weren't able to convince the city that we needed to keep that as a Golf Course. And from what I understand, I think they now have about six holes left. They got a brewery and six holes.

Palmer, Sandra  14:53

Well, maybe they'll invite us there to play sometime. Well, no story about Marty. When I was I'm playing in the City Junior. I remember Marty and her husband, John Griffiths came out and watch me play. I had no idea why, but I think I might have won that city championship. So I go a long ways back with her. So she was always a fine player and through amateur golf, she was a good player. He was a very good player. And I remember one year playing down in Houston, and her father was watching her play in the state championship, as was my adopted parents Vida and Ed Warren, they and he was walking with Mr. Leonard so and he was really nervous of course, that all the parents get nervous when they watch it fly so

Mike Gonzalez  15:51

So at what point At what age did you have somebody teaching you?

Palmer, Sandra  15:57

Well, not till not really until after college. But one one thing too that I don't know if, if you would know this, but when I was starting to play in, like the state championship and local tournaments, I was probably will anyway, Sandra Haynie and myself have been friends since we were about 14 years old. And I played against her at the state championship one year, I don't remember exactly where it was, but I beat her which she had hard, he won the Texas State amateur. And that was a real big thing. And I didn't really even know but after that, we became friends and she was my, my longest friend, the only person that I knew on tour rarely. When I when I joined the tour, she wasn't really a great player She was then to me, she looked tall, and she was real fan look. And she could hit those fairway woods like no other back in those days with the equipment. The courses were really long. And she was one of the finest I don't know how many turn I can't remember how many but 30 or 40 tournaments. So a lot, a lot, a lot a great player.

Mike Gonzalez  17:24

We we had her on the show and probably talked about just about all of them. So self taught then pretty much through at least College, which tells me that if you had a role model like Sandy Haynie to follow, and watch, that's a pretty good learning the golf swing.

Palmer, Sandra  17:42

You know, I don't know if you know this. Well, I would watch her but you know, she never watches anyone swing. Did she tell you that when you had an interview? Well, she probably did. And she, well, she got she never watches anyone. She always kind of looks down to the ground. And then if she'll say, Good shot, and one time I say, Well, you didn't even see me. How do you know it's a good shot, she said, I can hear it. I guess it's good. You know, you just kind of get in your own little world. But after college, that kind of changed. I've feel like you're leading up to a teacher. And when I was just to go back just a little bit when I was about 16, I believe I went to a tournament that was outside of Texas. And I met this guy named Lenny Wirtz. And we actually became very good friends, he would come to Texas and stay with us. And Lenny was at that time, I'm McGregor, he worked for McGregor. And later on, he became one of the commissioners of the LPGA. So we go a long way back. And through Lennie he introduced me to Harvey Penick through Betsy Rawls, and Mickey Wright and guess he took an interest in me and knew I wanted to get better and learn. I always had a lot of desire and always practiced a lot. And I always enjoy that I still do.

Mike Gonzalez  19:29

Well let's work our way up to that post college time by talking a little bit about what a young girl and lady would have been living through back in the late 50s, early 60s. Let's say this is long before Title Nine. And so you didn't you probably didn't have the opportunity to play golf in high school on a on a on a girls team maybe on a boys team if at all. Same thing with colleges.

Palmer, Sandra  19:54

Well north I would it that time. It's it's called the University of North Texas now, but then it was North Texas State University. And through the years they've had tremendous man's golf teams, I believe Don January and Billy Maxwell went there and Rives McBee,  Bobby Greenwood, those were the people that I knew of there. And there was a Golf Course there. And I would go practice. But you have to understand. When I went to college I did. Golf was not really my priority. So I was pretty social. At that time, I don't know what happened to me after I guess after college, maybe I'd already my hay was already out there. So I mean, it was fun. I had a great time. I was in a sorority and had a lot of activities there at the university. So

Mike Gonzalez  21:00

yeah, do you remember any of the chairs? Well,

Palmer, Sandra  21:03

not not too many. But I couldn't jump. Well, I could jump off the ground. And but I can't now but yeah, anyway, I tried out what through my sorority one of the the gals wanted me to try out for the for, for a cheerleader. That's a big deal to bid. You know, if you're in a sorority to have, you know, let's name recognition, I guess. So I was an Alpha Delta Pi. And she taught I just went over there just I said, No, I was too shy. I didn't think I could do it. And so she said, Come on, come on. And she taught me a chair was no real big deal and NTSU and do it with some vigor. And I tried out and they let me try out and then one of my good friend. I don't know if you'll be able to spell this name, but her name was Libby, Schlitler you have to be very careful when you littler. Anyway, Libby, Libby and myself were in the same sorority and we decided to run a campaign. And so we ran double. So it was both Libby, Libby and Sandy your two peppy gals and we passed out Doublemint gum. How else to say all right. So I had my best friend and we've cheerleader. So for a year and so that was that.

Mike Gonzalez  22:33

Yeah, people may come to maybe

Palmer, Sandra  22:38

she's no longer alive now. I'm sorry to say but she was. So had that personality. She knew everyone.

Mike Gonzalez  22:45

Well. And you were a homecoming queen. Oh, gosh. Probably gonna

Palmer, Sandra  22:49

wonder what happened? Well, you know, I guess I don't know how that happened. I did get somebody on the football team. So maybe he campaigned for me. I don't know.

Mike Gonzalez  23:03

So you say golf wasn't a priority. They didn't really have.

Palmer, Sandra  23:08

Well, the weather today is not that great. And Texas, right, Bruce?

Devlin, Bruce  23:14

And it can be really hot or really cold.

Palmer, Sandra  23:17

The winters are cold and windy. You get that wind coming down through the plains. And yeah, it's very challenging. So I just played it might be more in the spring and in the summers.

Mike Gonzalez  23:32

So did you compete though, as a collegiate athlete in 1961, when you were runner up the national championship,

Palmer, Sandra  23:38

I did go I believe it was in Albuquerque. Okay, and a lady named Judy Hopemer defeated me. So I think she went on to win the championship. So I did play that and I played when I was a teen I played in West Texas State Championship, which I won four or five times, I believe. And it was all over different Midland and Abilene and all different places. But Texas had great players. Really great players. Mrs. Goldthwaite. I mean, if you could see these women hit the ball, there was a lady named Pat Garner that had been a professional at one time that got her amateur standing back. She was certainly a role model. And I learned about not let's see how to say this. There was a lady that I can see also she had on this bucket hat and she would hit the ball if you would go boop boop boop, down the middle on the green one. So I learned then it's you never take anyone for granted, you know? Yeah, but how important the short game was so but anyway, Texas had some wonderful wonder fool pliers. And I don't know that Marty ever played in those but another lady, I can't think of her name now I think of it in in a minute she was one of the great players in Texas, shoot Rathmell Marianne Rathmell I don't know if you've ever heard but she could have been a professional. And

Mike Gonzalez  25:28

well as as as golf rich as Texas is with its fine players over the years to have prevailed to win the Texas State Amateur in 1963. Must have been pretty good accomplished.

Palmer, Sandra  25:42

Think of the players that have come out of Texas to that had been on the tour. So So then as as, as it went along here through Lenny, I met this wonderful person, Harvey and I had to put his wife Helen in there to Helen and Harvey Penick. And right after I didn't meet him until I was right out of college. So then I taught school for a year. And I marked off PE teacher, right? Mainly, but I was so young looking then and tiny. And I have a whistle around my neck and the boys would come up and put I was always really shocked to and it put their arm around me. So I had to wear that whistle so they'd know it was me. So anyway, I taught school for a year and then I was able to every weekend, I think for a whole year I drove to Austin, Texas, and, and later, we're just not too many weeks after that. Helen and Harvey invited me to come and stay with them. So I stayed with him every weekend. So I have a lot of great memories of those years at the old Austin Country Club. You know, back in those days till the pros do they're all they did everything. I mean, Harvey was out there. You know, he was lifting the bags and pick driving that cart, picking up the balls and lifting those big old buckets of balls. And through then a lot of the pros were coming through. And then back then are these two young men from Austin? The most? Yeah. You want to say their neighbors?

Devlin, Bruce  27:33

Oh, I remember very well, as a matter of fact, just another little by story. When when both Ben and Tom were in college at Texas. There was a gentleman from Australia who signed a contract with Spalding and they sent this guy to the NC double A's and I did a I did a clinic for Tom, Tom Kite and Ben Crenshaw when they were at college, which was sort of when I look back at their careers and think, Boy, what a

Palmer, Sandra  28:11

no, yeah, it has to be something sad about Harvey's teaching. No doubt about it. And one of the things too, that you practice by yourself, you know, they never, he would never let one of them listen to his lesson with the other one. So it wasn't until they made this film. When I was even on tour, I happened to be there that particular day was when Tom and Ben were there doing a video with Harvey and they said this is the first time we've ever been together when you've been talking about golf. Amazing. So you know you that's the thing about it, you always try if you listen to people try everything that somebody's telling them so the hobby would let you do that.

Mike Gonzalez  29:06

So when you first met Harvey, what did he do? Did he make wholesale changes? Did he kind of work with what you had? Because you were pretty raw

Palmer, Sandra  29:14

the very first day when I came in the first thing he said other than obviously Hello, let me see your grip and I put my hands on the club and he said I was so afraid you were gonna have a bad grip

Devlin, Bruce  29:36

that you did haha good

Palmer, Sandra  29:39

so well you know as you I presume if you've ever talked off before Bruce beauty

Devlin, Bruce  29:46

oh no little bit well I mean, you know

Palmer, Sandra  29:49

recognize a good player by their grip.

Devlin, Bruce  29:52

basic fundamentals always going to see

Palmer, Sandra  29:54

someone and they put their hands on that glove and and as in have Having taught through the years when someone comes up with a really poor grip, Harvey would always say you, you change that grip and they won't come back. And it's just a very hard thing to change. But from West Texas, that was one of the things Harvey always emphasized with his coaching. You know, he coached at the University of Texas for all those years. And these people from North Texas would come with these really strong grips. That's because the wind blow so hard there. So you get that strong grip, you can keep that ball down.

Mike Gonzalez  30:41

So Sandra, what besides your grip? Did Harvey look at those first few sessions?

Palmer, Sandra  30:47

I'm thinking probably everything. Everything. So I imagine I went out. This has been a long time ago. But I would imagine I went out to hit a few balls. And I've always struggled with my tempo. And I always have had, I guess I'm a fast woman, right? And sometimes in his in his teaching, and you know, I'm thinking I'm doing it a lot slower. But he would have maybe one of the women One of them's who's one of the members walk by and say, Does this tempo look fast? Does it look normal? Or does it look slow? Well, hardly anybody ever said slow. And I was lucky. I was always lucky if someone said no out that I was normal. So that was always kind of under the radar. And this was kind of a fun. Well, not a fun story. But one of the years that I was there to see Harvey and it was so cold out. And he came up on the practice tee. And he said, Now, we just got to slow that, that takeaway down. And I had the most difficult time and I was thinking, gosh, if I don't slow this down, he's gonna catch pneumonia. And it was probably in the 40 degrees out there. And here I was, but finally he said, he said, That's good enough for me. So, but it's always been a challenge for me. So

Devlin, Bruce  32:23

you're a little bit like Lanny Wadkins. Maybe. Quickly.

Palmer, Sandra  32:28

What about NickFal;do Yeah. Nick Faldo Nick Price. Nick Price, Price.

Mike Gonzalez  32:33

Yeah. And we remember Hollis Stacy, Bruce sharing with this that what her mother instilled in her was The Blue Danube Waltz for tempo.

Palmer, Sandra  32:43

She that Hollis still has a great swing. Just great. Yeah. Yeah, I like to practice next to her. She's got a good good solid takeaway and a big turn. So that was always good for me.

Mike Gonzalez  32:55

So you had a chance to work Harvey Penick. I'm sure his name will come up later as we talk. But at some point after this pretty strong amateur careers, some time in college some time teaching. You make a decision to turn professional. Why don't you take our listeners through what that process was like?

Palmer, Sandra  33:14

Well, it was a it wasn't something that was just really something that I thought about. I just I loved I loved golf. And I went down every weekend for a whole year to to see Harvey. And I don't know, maybe it was kind of toward the end of my teaching season that would drive you to want to do something else. And he maybe said I think maybe, maybe you're ready. But in all honesty, I learned my golf on tour. You couldn't do that today or you'd be broke, for sure. But I learned my golf on tour. They didn't you know, have cuts like they had today. However, to get your your LPGA card. You had to be in the top 80% Three out of four consecutive weeks. I don't know if you knew that. But that was how it kind of evolved. And yeah, so then you know, it's pretty hard when you're competing against Kathy Whitworth. And of course, Mickey Wright was not playing so much then she had I guess hurt her thumb or something and and or maybe she just retired. But you know you had the Betsy Rawls is and and let's see, there was just Carol Mann, Sandra Haynie, you know a lot of the really good good players so it was not easy, getting into that upper 80%. So finally I did and so on. I've been there ever since.

Mike Gonzalez  35:02

Thank you for listening to another episode of for the good of the game. And please, wherever you listen to your podcast on Apple and Spotify if you like what you hear, please subscribe. Spread the word until your friends until we tee it up again with the good of the game. So long, everybody

Music playing  35:24